PVD Wiki is now online!

[cwdean]

Oh, well. Maybe the competition will help.

Hmmm... Maybe that's why Reset is cranking-out page translations at an astonishing rate!

My only concern is it may be diverting resources from contributing to a comprehensive solution, and perhaps cause some confusion for our clients (i.e. which wiki am I supposed to go to?).  I don't want to undermine the effort of the other wiki...but having two wikis doesn't seem practical to me.  Just my opinion. 

[nostra]

Having two wikis is definitely not practical. The other wiki is installed and partially set up, but it is not filled with information. I think we'll see what comes out of the new Tiki customizations first. I'll also spend some time investigating features of both wikis and decide which one is the best for PVD.

[rick.ca]

Having two wikis is definitely not practical.

The issue is bigger than that. I've always been amazed that you're able to service two user groups, making each feel they are "it"—to the point of each forgetting the other exists. But what's happening now is clearly a symptom of this "two worlds" approach. One of the most important purposes of a user-created-and-maintained wiki was to remove that burden from you. Now you're slipping toward the role of referee between groups of feuding geeks who can't even talk to each other.

You might hope this will be resolved by your decision as to which wiki to use. But I think there are two better choices. One is to continue with the "two worlds" approach, and let each user group do its own thing. The other is to find some way to get the two groups communicating, and ask them to work out their differences. I prefer the second approach, especially considering building a truly international wiki reminds us all our "world" is not the only one, and gets everyone focused on communication/translation issues.

I have to wonder... If we were one group using one forum in one language, would the result be the same? I don't think so. I can't imagine anyone reading cwdean's introduction to the wiki and responding, "Bullshit! Your engine sucks, your site is slow and your wiki will never be what I want it to be—so I'm going to make my own! BTW, may I have your content?" But that's not what happened. As far as I can tell, the Russian group was not given that introduction, nor were they given an opportunity to discuss the implementation of a wiki ahead of time. Neither were users here, but that's beside my point —which is this situation could have been avoided with a little trust and communication.

Now I don't know if this line of reasoning is going anywhere near a practical solution. I certainly do not want you spending any time on it (BTW, when will 0.9.9 be finished?). But perhaps there's a user who is fluent in Russian and English who would be willing to facilitate some communication between the two groups. They could be a moderator of a forum in which they provide a translation of each message. I don't know if this is an option in SMF, but it might be the type of forum where nothing is posted until it is "approved" by the moderator (in this case, in order to add the translation). It would also be nice if SMF could be configured to display or mirror one forum on the two boards. Otherwise, the moderator would have to repost all original messages to the other forum. A moderator could easily be overwhelmed with this sort of arrangement. But it might work if there were limits placed on topics discussed, and perhaps on the number of posts (although requiring moderator approval would put a damper on that).

Now here's an irony: Another long-winded post for you to deal with when you should be coding. Maybe you can Google Translate it, post it on the Russian board, and let them deal with it.

[patch]

Having two wikis is definitely not practical.

The issue is bigger than that. I've always been amazed that you're able to service two user groups, making each feel they are "it"—to the point of each forgetting the other exists.
...
Maybe you can Google Translate it, post it on the Russian board, and let them deal with it.

Very interesting.
IMO there are two choices
1) Maintain 2 communities, in which case both should look at establishing their own Wiki.
2) Integrate both communities, in which case all posts need to be automatically translated from the authors language to other supported languages, both on the PVD forums & the Wiki.

The later seams preferable to me but that is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve, so maybe overall I would prefer a continuation of two separate communities until 0.9.9 is stable. At which time the forums could be integrated and the wiki moved to www.videodb.info

In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD 
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.videodb.info%2Fforum_ru%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Dforum&sl=ru&tl=en&history_state0=

[cwdean]

The issue is bigger than that.

Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest. 

Causing a fracture amongst the PVD community was not my intent, nor the intent of the PVD Wiki.  And lack of communication wasn't my intent either.  The whole purpose of the wiki is to pull the community together in order to collaborate on documentation.  Several of you have really embraced this intent, while others have not.  It really shouldn't matter what language a page is in...if it isn't in your preferred language then take a moment to translate it.  You don't even have to know the page language to run it through Google Translate or Babelfish to translate it to your preferred language.  Copy and paste that output into the PVD Wiki and you're done.  The only reason I don't automatically do this for the community is becuase I only know English and have no means to validate the accuracy of the Google or BabelFish translation.  But perhaps that isn't a big deal.  Anybody could run the page through translation and post the output to the appropriate language page (patch illustated this in his post).

And the choice of Wiki software shouldn't matter either.  It either works as a wiki or it doesn't.  The debate of the best software to use is very subjective, non-productive and is likely never to end.  The reason I chose TikWiki is because of it's feature-set and tight functional integration.  With the flip of one configuration option, I can turn on Forums, Articles, Blogs, File Galleries, Photo Galleries, etc. -- and each feature set is complete and fully integrated with every other feature set.  Right now, the only requirement is the need for a Wiki...so that is all that is turned on (and file gallery).  But as the community evolved I wanted to be prepared to support it.

The ultimate decision is up to Nostra.  I'd really like to see the community focus on developing and translating wiki pages and content, rather than debating about which wiki software is better.

And for my international friends, I'm terribly sorry if I've somehow alienated you by posting only English language pages.  It took me a few days to figure out how to configure all of Tiki's multilanguage support features.  And I was really counting on our multi-lingual members to assist with translating pages.  I might point out as well that there are now more non-English pages than there are English pages...so somebody out there doesn't mind translating and adding pages (thanks Reset!) 

Again, I'm open to suggestions for improving the site if you have any ideas.  As requested, I've implemented the Tikipedia theme so that the site looks more like a Wikipedia site for those that are more comfortable with that layout.

[cwdean]

I've added a wiki page called "How to translate Wiki pages" (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=How+to+translate+Wiki+pages&bl=y) to help provide guidance on translating wiki pages.  This link is accessible from the HomePage.

Hope this is helpful. 

[rick.ca]

In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD.

Trying to read and understand such a translation seems to demonstrate...

all posts need to be automatically translated

...is not feasible. Unless your goal is to start WWIII.

is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve

...which is completely counter-productive. This is something for the user community to resolve—with a primary objective being to relieve an over-worked and under-paid developer of the responsibility so he can focus on... development.

[rick.ca]

Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest.

Hey, we're movie buffs. Today it's drama, tomorrow it's comedy... 

As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. I appreciate both your intent, and all the effort you've put into this.

I'm not sure about the Tikipedia theme (except for the logo, of course )—while more pleasing overall, I wonder if it will be more difficult because the details don't stand out as well. How do you find it from a maintenance point-of-view? Are all the same features there? Does it require a lot of things to be changed so it works?

[patch]

The other is to find some way to get the two groups communicating, and ask them to work out their differences.
....
But perhaps there's a user who is fluent in Russian and English who ... provide a translation of each message. I don't know if this is an option in SMF, but it might be the type of forum where nothing is posted until it is "approved" by the moderator (in this case, in order to add the translation).... A moderator could easily be overwhelmed with this sort of arrangement. But it might work if there were limits placed on topics discussed, and perhaps on the number of posts (although requiring moderator approval would put a damper on that).

While this approach maybe adaptable to a Wiki where posts are mostly of high value, it is contrary to the requirements of an online forum. IMO an online forum thrives on people asking dumb questions, if asked once there is usually someone more experienced who offers a helpful response, if repeatedly asked it highlights an interface issue which the more experienced have become blind to.

As such most posts on the forum are not worth translating but everyone having a feel for the issues being discussed across the entire PVD community, and feeling free to ask stupid questions is extremely valuable.

In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD.

Trying to read and understand such a translation seems to demonstrate...

all posts need to be automatically translated

...is not feasible. Unless your goal is to start WWIII.

On this we disagree.
I agree reading the translated forum feels foreign, but that is only to be expected given I just walked into a forum with
Members: 1864  •  Posts: 5218  •  Topics: 331

Rather than the one I was familiar with
Members: 1116  •  Posts: 3727  •  Topics: 588

Clearly it would be expected to take some time to recognise the contributors knowledge / personality and the issues addressed by the community.

However looking through the posts I do get a fairly good impression of the issues being discussed and who writes constructive post.

is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve

...which is completely counter-productive. This is something for the user community to resolve—with a primary objective being to relieve an over-worked and under-paid developer of the responsibility so he can focus on... development.

On this we partly agree. nostra can delegate to the degree he is comfortable with but should still be in control. Unfortunately management takes time even when well set up and your workers are keen.

The interface I would like to see is a multilingual forum and Wiki. I should be able to specify my language and all posts and Wiki pages should be displayed in my native language (with the option to view the untranslated post at the click of a button).
Within the forum environment that would mean an untranslated thread could have posts in many languages, but all would be machine translated to each users native language.

With in the Wiki environment a combination of machine and human translation is appropriate as the posts are inherently of higher value. I would like to see a human translation of the current version of each wiki page when available.If not a machine translated version of the most recent issue of the page or the last human translated English version of the page (toggle between).

The reason I chose TikWiki is because of it's feature-set and tight functional integration.  With the flip of one configuration option, I can turn on Forums, Articles, Blogs, File Galleries, Photo Galleries, etc. -- and each feature set is complete and fully integrated with every other feature set.  Right now, the only requirement is the need for a Wiki...so that is all that is turned on (and file gallery).  But as the community evolved I wanted to be prepared to support it.

cwdean could TikWiki support the type of interface I have described. Alternatively are you or someone else aware of software that could. If software was available which would assist in bringing the communities together, then perhaps nostra may choose to delegate the upgrade to the PVD forum (& Wiki).

[rick.ca]

While this approach maybe adaptable to a Wiki where posts are mostly of high value, it is contrary to the requirements of an online forum.

My suggestion is in no way intended to address the "requirements of an online forum." It is for one special-purpose forum (among the many on the board). Its sole purpose would be to provide a communication link between the two groups.

However looking through the posts I do get a fairly good impression of the issues being discussed and who writes constructive post.

You've already demonstrated a method for translating foreign-language web pages so you can read them. I agree, one can get a vague idea of what is being discussed. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find it difficult to imagine machine-translation facilitating actual communication between participants of different languages—especially on technical issues. Can you provide examples of software-support forums that work this way?

nostra can delegate to the degree he is comfortable with but should still be in control. Unfortunately management takes time even when well set up and your workers are keen.

Effective management has nothing to do with control or time. The best possible situation nostra could wish for is a healthy, vibrant user community that takes care of itself.

Within the forum environment that would mean an untranslated thread could have posts in many languages, but all would be machine translated to each users native language.

Okay, maybe I can imagine this—on the basis there are always many conversations going on, and users already decide which ones they want to participate in. So if one chooses not to participate in a Russian conversation because they're unsure of the translation, that's no different than not participating because it's too technical, or simply not a topic of interest.

So if that is a viable option, all the more reason we should try to establish a dialog between the two groups.

However... it doesn't look like SMF offers a solution. I was searching their forum—without luck—and then came across the Language Specific Support section of their forum. This is a collection of child forums for different languages. If that's how they handle multiple languages, I doubt SMF will do it your way.

I would like to see a human translation of the current version of each wiki page when available. If not a machine translated version of the most recent issue of the page or the last human translated English version of the page (toggle between).

The TikiWiki designers apparently agree with me—machine translation is not an effective substitute for human translation. In keeping with the very nature and purpose of a wiki, users are expected to add pages in their own language. Even if understandable, the existence of machine-generated page would discourage them from doing so. They can, however, almost instantly view a machine translation of a page in the editor—where, of course, they are expected to "clean it up" for the benefit of other users of their language. Our wiki already has all the pages written by cwdean translated into Russian.

[patch]

Effective management has nothing to do with control or time. The best possible situation nostra could wish for is a healthy, vibrant user community that takes care of itself.

www.videodb.info has a donations button which I guess covers the cost of providing the facility to download the software. As such we all have a vested interest in maintaining this functionality.

Nostra has put an extraordinary amount of work in creating and supporting PVD. If I was him I would want to maintain control over how it was presented to the public, which would mean I would want to investigate any major change to the forum prior to it being implemented. My point is only that these things take time.

On another subject.
Is it possible to put a link to the Wiki contents page from the home page http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=PVD-Manual&structure=PVD-Manual
I believe this is a system generated / maintained page. It does appear to be incomplete though as many more pages are listed here http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-listpages.php Not sure what determines if a pages is added to the contents or not.

[rick.ca]

If I was him I would want to maintain control over how it was presented to the public...

That's fine, and he will always be the ultimate authority. But expecting the exercise of that control will have any particular positive outcome is like expecting to be able to herd cats. Cats, however, can be led. But I'm not even suggesting it's up to nostra to lead. This is his hobby, which I assume he expects to enjoy without undue stress, and it hopefully comes after his family, friends and real job. Perhaps the most important leadership should coming from the users—to ensure we are collectively acting in a way that ensures our developer is not overwhelmed with things that need to be "controlled," and is having too much fun to ever wonder whether his efforts are worthwhile.

Not sure what determines if a pages is added to the contents or not.

That's an optional feature cwdean is working on. The layout of pages in the form of a manual (or book or whatever) has to be configured manually. All the system can do is put the pages in alphabetic order (or hits, date modified, etc).

[nostra]

I think we'll stick with current forum engine and TikiWiki for now. The Wiki is getting better all the time. The only thing that makes me worry a little bit is that the server seems to be pretty slow

Never the less I am open for any suggestions on improving forums and/or Wiki. I like the idea of having everything in one place, so if someone will find a nice solution of this task then, please, let me know.

[rick.ca]

The only thing that makes me worry a little bit is that the server seems to be pretty slow

It seems "normal" to me. But it's geographically close to me and far from you. Might that be it? Come to think of it, I experience regular slow downs and time-outs with this site. Maybe having two locations is a good way to achieve a global balance.

[cwdean]

Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest.

Hey, we're movie buffs. Today it's drama, tomorrow it's comedy... 

So true 

As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. I appreciate both your intent, and all the effort you've put into this.

I'm not sure about the Tikipedia theme (except for the logo, of course )—while more pleasing overall, I wonder if it will be more difficult because the details don't stand out as well. How do you find it from a maintenance point-of-view? Are all the same features there? Does it require a lot of things to be changed so it works?

My pleasure.  I think we're well on our way to figuring this out.  The Tikipedia theme has been online this last Friday.  All I had to do was install the Tikipedia theme (took about a minute) and change one configuration setting in the Wiki to turn it on.  That was about it.  No maintenance involved whatsoever (unless we find a bug while using, which is always possible with software  ).  But so far everything seems to be working fine.

[cwdean]

cwdean could TikWiki support the type of interface I have described. Alternatively are you or someone else aware of software that could. If software was available which would assist in bringing the communities together, then perhaps nostra may choose to delegate the upgrade to the PVD forum (& Wiki).

Patch, TikiWiki is actually working just the way you described right now    The software fully supports multiple languages and a user can toggle between any translated page at will.  Translation is primarily human driven in order to promote the most useful and accurate content.  You can use an external translator such as Babel Fish or Google Translate, but those are supplementary services for when a translated page doesn't exist.  It's anticipated that the community will translate a page when needed.  And once translated appears along with all translated pages in the Language drop-down list.  Also, if a page has been translated in your preferred language, it will automatically appear when navigating the wiki.  So I think this behavior is exactly what you were looking for (or describing).

I did some research on translating wiki pages and pretty much every wiki software program works this way.  The implementation may be different, but the expectation that the community will translate pages is the same.

Also, TikiWiki fully supports integrated Forums...i.e. with full multi-language support as well.  This isn't a current requirement, so it's not turned on...and it's completely notra's call when and if he even wants to integrate the two feature sets.  I think the intent is to see how the Wiki goes and to let it mature for a while before even considering such a move (which makes sense to me  ).  But PVD Wiki can support the move when and if nostra is ready.

[cwdean]

Is it possible to put a link to the Wiki contents page from the home page http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=PVD-Manual&structure=PVD-Manual
I believe this is a system generated / maintained page. It does appear to be incomplete though as many more pages are listed here http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-listpages.php Not sure what determines if a pages is added to the contents or not.

Hi patch,

Actually the PVD-Manual isn't really system generated...which is why it's incomplete    It is using a feature of the wiki software called Structures which allows one to create a layout of wiki pages so that they are structured (i.e. like a book, etc).  It isn't hard to do, but does take some time...which is why it's incomplete right now.  You basically tell the structure what order the relationship of pages should appear in.  This way you can navigate pages in that order (like a book).  You can specify indentation in order to group like pages (like a chapter) and the Table of Contents will reflect this.

It's a cool feature.  I just need to finish it    By the way, I can give permissions for anybody to add pages to the structure.  I was reluctant to do this at first, for fear of the structure somehow getting messed up (it requires some planning and may not be all that intuitive).  But perhaps I should make it available to all registered users, or at least a select few.  What do you think?

[rick.ca]

No maintenance involved whatsoever...

That's good news. Except if users want it changed again, you can't plead "too much trouble."

I don't know if the theme is at fault, it looks like there's a glitch with numbering in the "top users" module.

Also, TikiWiki fully supports integrated Forums...i.e. with full multi-language support as well.

I would be concerned forums at the Wiki would reduce activity here. But there may be use for this—facilitating communication between the two user groups. I've been looking for SMF solution, but haven't found one. I asked about inter-forum posting in the SMF Forum, and the response so far suggests that if there is a solution, it's not an obvious one. Maybe we should establish one simple forum at the Wiki—for the limited purpose of discussing all things wiki. It would serve a purpose we can't fill here, and would provide a demonstration of a different kind of forum—for consideration of options for the future.

But perhaps I should make it available to all registered users, or at least a select few.  What do you think?

I think it unlikely anyone is going to spontaneously help with something like that, just because they have permission to do so. As you point out, even if someone wanted to help, they would have to be concerned about messing up your structure. If you want help, it would probably be more effective to ask for it, then give permission and instructions to those who step forward. It would be a good task for your yet-to-be-named Assistant Editor-in-Chief.

[cwdean]

No maintenance involved whatsoever...

That's good news. Except if users want it changed again, you can't plead "too much trouble."

I don't know if the theme is at fault, it looks like there's a glitch with numbering in the "top users" module.

Good point    Forget I even said anything...is that even possible? 

I would be concerned forums at the Wiki would reduce activity here. But there may be use for this—facilitating communication between the two user groups. I've been looking for SMF solution, but haven't found one. I asked about inter-forum posting in the SMF Forum, and the response so far suggests that if there is a solution, it's not an obvious one. Maybe we should establish one simple forum at the Wiki—for the limited purpose of discussing all things wiki. It would serve a purpose we can't fill here, and would provide a demonstration of a different kind of forum—for consideration of options for the future.

It may...my suggestion was mostly as an inform in order to learn (experience) more about how the forums in TikiWiki work.  But your point is worth considering...a forum to specifically support the wiki could be set up and then community feedback could help nostra with future support decisions.

I think it unlikely anyone is going to spontaneously help with something like that, just because they have permission to do so. As you point out, even if someone wanted to help, they would have to be concerned about messing up your structure. If you want help, it would probably be more effective to ask for it, then give permission and instructions to those who step forward.

Another good point.  I was reconsidering after I suggested the idea.  It really would be too much work for more than one person to try to support (without stepping on each other).  However, asking for a volunteer to create a like structure in Russian would be most appreciated    I can ask for such assistance after I've finished Version 1 of the PVD-Manual.  Anyway, it's not even done and it's getting attention   

It would be a good task for your yet-to-be-named Assistant Editor-in-Chief.

Now there's a promising thought    Anybody in particular you have in mind?

[cwdean]

I don't know if the theme is at fault, it looks like there's a glitch with numbering in the "top users" module.

I just checked into this.  It isn't a problem with the theme.  It's an acknowledged bug in TikiWiki that needs to be fixed.  It's mostly an aesthetic problem, that's why I've gone ahead and left it visible.  Thanks for catching (noticing) this though.